Could you give me a bit of a background to when you first started gambling?

I used to go socially up to the river when we didn’t have pokies here…when they first started and they came here we’d go socially for all their little perks that they came up with. Like I remember one Sunday morning…which I normally used to go to church…at one venue they used to have a morning thing where if you got a 100 credits they’d give you out raffle tickets and you could win big packages of green groceries and things like that. And it was whole big room…everybody just used to go there at 10 o’clock and we all got to know each other and it was a real social occasion. And then when it was finished you’d probably end up having lunch or something, so virtually the whole day would be gone…

At that stage did you feel that you were keeping it under control…it was fun?

Yes. I was working full time and so was my husband and I never dreamt that it would become a problem. I just thought sometimes when I’d lost a bit more than I’d planned to, “Oh well, that’s my activity for the week”. I never thought that it would become a problem.

And did you go in with an intention of “I’ll stay for the hour that the specials are running” or “until I’ve spent x amount of money”…some limitations on it?

Sort of. Yeah. You had a vague idea, but it never worked out the way you planned it.

So what particularly did you enjoy about the pokies?

Just everything I think. The whole social thing…they’re not really a social thing because once you become addicted to them you don’t want to speak to anybody. You prefer that everyone goes away, even the ones that are offering you the coffee. But at that stage…I just enjoyed going, everybody that we knew used to go. The man next door would come in and say “Oh, I played this one and that one and I won so much”.  At that stage a lot of people that I knew were actually trying them out because it was a fun thing to do - it was the place to go because we’d never had them before. So people were comparing what they’d won, what they’d lost...it was a bit of an exciting time when they first came in.

At what point did you think “this might be getting a bit out of hand”?

It’s hard to recall exactly when it was…I must have got help after my husband died…but I started realising that the money was going awfully fast and that I was working virtually for that and I was disappointed in that because the bank balance started to come down…and I’d worked hard and we’d built up quite a little nest egg. Prior to him dying, a couple of months before, I’d made a decision I wasn’t playing anymore…even when we went over the border to see my family, we went to the clubs for lunch and he would go and put his $5 through which he was quite happy with, but I stood and watched him play. I did that for about 3 or 4 months and was quite comfortable with it. Then he died and I didn’t want to go near them because it brought back too many memories…but then after a while I’d go to different ones and I started to feel that I was enjoying them again.

And before the pokies, were there any other kinds of gambling that you were interested in?

Never…oh, the odd Tattslotto ticket, but I don’t even buy one of those anymore. I’m not interested in that at all.

When you started playing pokies, did you have a good understanding of how they actually worked?

No, not really, although a relative of mine had a contract to build some of them and although he couldn’t reveal anything, he used to say “you’ll never win on them”. And I’d say “But I won this amount last week.”

Over time, did your perceptions of them change? Did you find yourself anticipating pay-outs or expecting wins?

Yes, you always go in thinking that you’re going to win and come out feeling absolutely shocking when you don’t. But I’d still enjoy playing them no matter whether I won or lost…there was some sort of enjoyment…but I knew that they were terrible things. I still even enjoy playing them now…when I do go, which is nowhere near as often, but occasionally.

Can you describe that feeling of going to the venue. You mentioned last week that you had an experience of roaring off to the venue...you had to get there in the shortest possible time, as quick as you possibly could…how did that play out?

Well, you get an urge…I’m not a choc-aholic but people have described to me that they just have to have chocolate…they get this urge to have it. And it would be triggered off even by somebody mentioning something or a bit of music that I might relate to what I heard on the poker machines and I’d think “Oh, that’d be good, I’d like to go there.” Then that would be it; your mind’s focused totally on that; you don’t think about anything else you’re doing and if you’re planning on going to pay the bills and you’ve planned on going to see somebody…all those things become totally irrelevant then once you’ve got your mind set on where you’re going and you can visualise the machine you want to play or whatever, it seems like everything else flies out the window. It’s like they say when you fall in love, everything else flies out the window…well, poker machines are a bit like that…they just simply control the way that you think.

So once you’d arrived…what would you do when you got to the venue?

Well, you might be thinking as you’re driving along, “I’ll get a cup of coffee, and I’ll go and sit down and I’ll just put in $10 and see how I go”. Well you forget the coffee by the time you get in there because you’ve spotted a machine you want to get onto and no one else is on it so you head straight for that…and you haven’t got any coffee and you’ve already put in $50 and then you’re thinking, “I was going to have a cup of coffee, I’m getting a bit thirsty”, by that time someone’s walked around and you’ve asked them for one so you think that’s all right. So you haven’t even got time to go and get your cup of coffee.

…how much money might you have been spending on an average week?

It’s hard to say because it was over such a long time…it could have been around a week’s wages which would have been about $400. It may not have been, some weeks possibly we may not have gone…but when we had a unit on the Peninsula I know that instead of us going around and looking at different things, a lot of the time we spent at the pokie machines.

So it wasn’t just about impacts in terms of money, but time…can you explain how you were feeling and how the problem was developing?

It probably started off with me going with friends for lunch and things like that…but I’ve never really not been hooked on them I suppose, I just had an interlude where I kept control of them. How do you feel? Well it sort of depends on whether you win or not! I mean if you walk out there and you’ve lost $300 you feel absolutely terrible, but you train yourself pretty well because you walk out and you think…“Well, why should I feel unhappy about this…I’ve done it now, I can’t take it back, so I’m not going to punish myself”. And off you go. Then after that the next day comes and you don’t think about it anymore. It’s when you’ve got to pay the bills and the money’s not there, that’s when it’s a problem.

You were going with friends initially…did you find later that you would go by yourself?

Oh, yeah, yes. Every moment that you haven’t got a lot to do…it became more important than staying at home and doing the housework….it becomes more important than a lot of things.

…did you have a preference for a certain game or a certain position in a venue?

Quite often…and usually it would be the one that you’d won on last and you think you want to get back to that one again….And it’s not only me, it’s everyone who heads straight for the one they won on last time!

And a particular denomination…could you describe your playing behaviour?

When I first started off they only had 5 lines on a machine, or something, and you were happy with that and you would just bet 5 cents or whatever it was. I remember my husband used to come up to me when there were 9 line machines, because he only ever bet 5…but not me, I had to bet the lot…if it was 9 lines, that what’s I had to bet….And he’d still be happy playing 5…so we’d had arguments because he’d finish his $5 and come up and say “Don’t press 9 lines, you’re going through too much money, just play the 5! You’ll still win as much.”  That was his theory…then we’d argue and I’d tell him to go and…watch somebody else play. I didn’t want anybody standing over my shoulder, watching me play and telling me how to do it. If I’d been winning and I had coins, I’d give him a handful and he’d go off play again and that would satisfy him for a while. That was the start and of course in later times it’s been worse…although I must admit that the 25 and 30 line machines I simply won’t play them unless I’ve won…I don’t ever play 25 lines, because I’ll play up to 20 but I just think they keep you putting more and more and more…in the casino they’re up to 30-something now. I’d rather bet up than bet the maximum lines on those big machines…double the amount and all that sort of thing…it’s impossible to win any sort of money if you’re looking to chase money, by just betting one credit per line.

Did you play machines for second screen features…like free spins?

Yes, free spins are a very big deal! That’s something that really attracts people.

Can you recall the time when machines went to note acceptors, changed from coin only? Does that make any difference to your spending?

I think it makes a huge difference….You get very agitated if you have to wait to get coin…you want to get back there; it’s really quite frightening. So therefore, you’re inclined to grab $50 out and put it through a machine. Then it still surprises me how you can take that $50 and put it into that machine knowing that there’s probably a 99.9% chance you’re not getting another cent back out of it! And feeding it in as if it’s a piece of paper…and that what I think happens when you’re in a gaming venue - you have no value of money whatsoever. None…When I was working and the other girl used to play them, too, and we’d get into work and that would be the topic of conversation. Then she’d say “I think I’m going to have to give them up “and I’d say “Yeah, but I was looking at a dress last week and I wouldn’t spend $50 on that”, yet I’d just lost $300 on the poker machines. So there’s no rationalisation…you’ll go around and buy all the bargains on everything, everywhere, but then when you go into a pokie venue you don’t think twice about putting hundreds of dollars through. When you think about it, you wish you hadn’t done it, but…you still do it! And I used to try to psychoanalyse myself and think “what’s going on here, I used to be a normal, intelligent person…what am I doing back on these things that are completely controlling me? As soon as I think ‘pokies’, that’s it, I’ve got to be there and I don’t have any control after that.” That’s the worst part…I mean, every other aspect of my life…my daughter will tell you that I’m a controlling person…at work they’ll tell you…and yet that’s one area that I haven’t got any control over!

That’s something that you’re dealing with now?

Oh, yes. Now I’ve got control in as much as I don’t go as often, but I still have to be honest that if I go, I haven’t got control over what I spend. I know all the things…don’t take your cards, don’t take as much money…but that’s not what you want to do. Like if you’re going to go, you want to be able to play… so the secret for me now is if I go I have to make sure that I’ve got to be somewhere at a certain time and that’ll make me leave the venue before I spend too much money.

So is the “cutting loose”, out of control feeling…is that part of the enjoyment of the pokies?

Hmmm, I sort of haven’t looked at it that way…no, I don’t really know the answer to that one…because I suppose you could cut loose and do other things. It’s probably the “evilist” thing that I do! I mean it’s something that’s against what I’m taught, because I’m a Christian… It’s not something that I’d stand up in front of the whole Church and say “I like going to the pokies”. …It’s sort of a bit strange really, although it seems to be an accepted thing now with everybody, Church or whatever…

What lead you to make the call to Gambler’s Help?

Financially…because I thought I don’t want to be doing this…I’ve got two young grandchildren and I’d like to see them get money…if anything happens to me I’d like to be able to leave something… and also to be able to help them when we go out on weekends and I’d like to be able to take them out and buy them things. And I wasn’t travelling too well because I was working only 25 hours a week and the money wasn’t coming in as much as what I’d been used to, so I couldn’t afford to just turn around and lose anything. I was really down…

Did you keep your gambling a secret, or at least the problem side of it?

From my husband I kept the bank balance a secret. That was terrible, because we didn’t have any secrets, and it was going down, down, down, especially after I finished up work…we had the superannuation sitting in the bank, which was probably a silly thing to do…a statement would go in and I’d make sure I was the one who opened the letter box…and no, I didn’t tell very many people where I was at all. That’s one of the things, too, when you’re a very honest person...you don’t always tell exactly the way it’s happened. And you never ever tell anyone you lose, you only ever tell them you win.

Did you keep actual records of what you spent?

..that would have been too hard to cope with, you don’t really want to know about that…it’s probably thousands…

Did you have any… sizeable wins along the way?

I won a jackpot thing one day… and this is really sad…it was $4,600…about 6 months ago. I’d gone into a venue and…everything I touched, I won. I hadn’t won for ages and wasn’t planning on even going there,…2 cent machine…this doesn’t happen very often… a 5 cent machine and I started getting free spins and that, and I’m not taking too much notice of what’s going on because I’ve already got $500 or $600…and I’m betting up of course…and the next thing is the jackpot theme music went off and there was nothing on the screen or anything…I was sitting there and the thing wouldn’t press…everyone’s running around saying “who’s won it, who’s won it?” and I’m thinking “I couldn’t care less who’s won it”…I just kept pressing and nothing’s happening and I looked over at the girl as if to say “Hello, help me” and she said “It’s you!”…It was quite good to win it, and I had all these plans for it, but the other thing was I thought to myself, “Really, that’s not even getting back anything that I’ve put in”. So therefore, it wasn’t exciting…like if I won Tattslotto, I’d probably be over the moon, if I took a ticket, because I wouldn’t have spent much on Tattslotto. But to win at the pokies, I thought “Oh, no big deal”. And to be honest, I couldn’t wait to get back, so I think most of it might have gone back…

…going back to the time when you first made the decision to call up and get help, how did you find that? Was it challenging..?

Oh, yes, it was a big decision to make to recognise that you need help. It was hard… because you’re sitting there and I used to think somebody would walk in and recognise me…and how am I going to explain what I’m doing here…it was uncomfortable there for a while…I used to feel quite disturbed about it sometimes… anyway, I did it…it was a big thing to do then.

That’s often a factor in why people don’t ask for help…or at least it means that it takes them a while before they do...those sorts of concerns.

I suppose playing the pokie machines was not something that I’m ashamed of doing, it’s being ashamed of losing control of something…Like, whenever you lose that control and it’s costing you something, then I think that’s the part that you’re really ashamed of. I don’t see any harm if you’ve got a few dollars and you want to walk into a club and have lunch, go with a friend or go by yourself and spend an hour putting money in poker machine. I don’t see that as being a shameful thing to do, but losing control and having a gambling problem…that’s the part that I feel shameful about….that I wouldn’t admit to anybody at work…we might joke and say they’re easy to lose money on but they’re hard to win on, but I wouldn’t say I’m addicted to them…you’d try and cover that up.

If you had a ten point scale of degree of difficulty, how hard would you say your situation with the pokies has been.

I think 10 easily. It’s a very difficult thing to stop. It’s almost impossible to stop. The problem is that you don’t want to, that’s the thing. You want to because of the money factor, but you don’t want to stop because you enjoy the whole thing. It’s like saying you can’t have chocolate anymore…you love it to death but you can’t have it. It’s always there for you to see...it’ll be sitting around in front of you…you can smell it and you can see it…but you can’t touch it…that’s what it’s like…having pokies on every corner when ever you’re driving home from anywhere and you really love going to them…is very hard.

Is there anything that other people could have done along the way that may have helped you?...

I think you have to take responsibility for your own actions…I mean they can put the temptations out there…I can’t work out what it is but they totally mesmerise you…I don’t like the idea that the government gets so much money out them…I mean what they’re putting back in is a pittance to what they’re getting out of it… I think therefore they’re not really interested in making people better, because it’s their revenue…I don’t think that they should go the 24 hours and I’d like to see the ATMs taken out, even though that would inconvenience me terribly sometimes …but I think that’d be a real big step in the right direction….

If you were going to give a word of advice to anyone thinking about starting to gamble, what would it be?

It’s hard to say “Don’t”, because some people could do it quite well and enjoy it…but you don’t know if you’re not going to be one of those ones and are going to become addicted. So I’d be very cautious, very, very cautious…that would be the word I’d have to use. I mean...if anyone had ever told me many years ago “You’re going to have a major gambling problem”, I wouldn’t have believed them…